So to start this off, I want to let everyone know that we have heard a lot of feedback and have gleaned the following points from it on the recent events result post. We want to state that we have also seen a lot of positive feedback in other locations, such as the event post itself, plurk, discord, and private conversations. To this end, we want to make certain that it is not only the loudest voices being heard before we make changes. (Especially since the mods have jobs and other obligations, so some of these changes may be subject to availability.)
To start off, we've made a summary of points brought to our attention and would like to present them to the players as well as any thoughts we may have had on them. At the end of this post, we will include a list of changes that we will poll the community on to see what the community at-large would like to do.
1. "Wall of Text" events- there's too much going on in every event, or it takes a long time to mentally work out plot-heavy posts.
Our events aren't actually that much longer than most when compared to other games. However, it's been brought to our attention that our layout makes it harder to read and parse through. We're happy to consider finding a better way to break it up and display events. Bear with us a little while so we can figure this out.
2. Not enough time to start a thread before the result of the poll.
No one was able to start a thread before the poll. The poll is closed before the log goes up. This has been the case for most polls, so that we are able to determine outcomes for players to understand where their thread can head on an OOC level. This is why we post plotting posts ahead of the game, to allow players to discuss OOC what they want to do with their characters during the events and decide ahead of posting their threads. The only thread that was asked for was for bonuses, so players could be like "Hey! I participated in that prompt, I can help extra!" It was not a duty or requirement. That is why it is worth 3 points as the highest bonus because it is the only bonus that had required action. We recognize that perhaps the concept of bonuses had not been properly explained on our part and will seek to reword in the future.
3. Events start in the middle of the month and so it's difficult to get AC:
The following prompt sets are offered to the entire game throughout the month and are considered game canon and available to all characters:
Monthly Updates - posts right before the start of each month; setting-related small things, not necessarily prompts but ideas you can form your own prompts with)
QuestBoard - posts right before the start of each month; prompts for do-gooders and a separate set for morally gray and villainous types; completely avoidable if you don't want to use them, posted before the TDM so that newbies can use these as additional prompts if they don't see anything that interests them in the... It should be noted that these are not considered events at all and are not going to host game plots.
Test Drive Meme - 1st of every month. All prompts in the TDM are considered game canon (as in, these things ARE happening in the city, whether or not they're with characters people do or don't app in end up counting) and have been clearly labeled as such since day 1. TDM prompts are frequently used to set up or lead into events. The only limitation that we ask is that new players are the only ones to top level on the post; all players may use the prompts for logs, network posts, inbox threads, or anywhere they want really. This has and always will be the case.
The Monthly Event - Plotting on 18th and log on the 20th was actually decided by player vote to see what the best spacing and format would be. Bear in mind that apps only close on the 14th and thus would leave no adjustment period for new players (and also potentially heavily stress the mods out due to lack of time between apps and writing). Pushing it later would force it to overlap too heavily with the TDM, Questboard, and monthly updates which are all at the start of the month. Additionally, on the mod side of things, we are also attempting to process activity checks and rewards and update setting info, manage hiatuses, and more.
AC is designed to make sure that you are starting at least one new thing a month and the game offers plenty to go off of throughout the month, not just all at once. It does not need to be the event, but even if it is, AC allows for up to 7 days of the previous month to still count. While we are not a game designed for boomeranging threads, our AC is designed to make sure that players aren't months behind in the game. This is a deliberately chosen pace.
To clarify and better identify the function of each avenue of prompt offerings, we will add a breakdown to the FAQ sometime in the near future.
4. Trouble keeping up with the storyline/important plots:
If ever you are having trouble with the game, we have a game progression page you may consider checking out! It is updated after plot-heavy events and uses bullet points to make following the storyline easier.
In events themselves, in order to provide enough description and information for players, we try to include details in the events. We already get loads of questions as it is with the included details; hundreds more that not everyone is going to read through in the questions thread is going to make things even more challenging to coordinate for both players and mods. HOWEVER, as stated before, we are open to looking into alternative formats to maybe break the information up to make it easier to digest.
5. "The next 3 months will be chiller" does not absolve the heavy hits we already took over the last month. I phrased it as feeling like we get to dance on the rubble.
That statement was not intended to absolve anything, it was to let people know that we have no intention of forcing a heavy plot on anyone during the holiday months, which are often the busiest months of the year for most people. The whole format of Avalon is based on player response having control over the situation, and the consequences that follow. We're not just going to pretend like nothing happened, but we still feel obligated to inform our players that they can expect things to lighten up going forward for a few months. Sorry for using the word "chill" that is just how I talk and it was late at night for me. I apologize for typing informally, as it seems to have caused a misunderstanding.
6. People weren't aware that threads were required to participate in the poll.
That is because they were not. A bonus of 3 points was offered to anyone who did participate in the TDM prompt. It should be keyly noted that this is a BONUS, not a requirement. It was only ever intended to be a bonus to help even out the number of busy people during this month. We considered delaying the event, but it only ever gets less convenient during the holiday for people. Anyone can thread any prompt they want even if they do not participate in the poll. The poll is just used to determine outcomes.
7. It was inevitable that some of the missions failed.
Yes. The event prompt set was called "Triage" because the intention was that it would not be possible to save all three missions. Triage (in very simplified terms) is a system by which emergency responders categorize individuals based on who they can save and who they cannot. The intention of the event is that at least one of the missions would fail.
I want to talk about this in specific because it has been stated many times that this game is not intended to be a game that only has good ends. There are absolutely bad ends possible in Avalon. There are OK ends, good ends, best ends. They've been story mapped out based on potential player decisions, and even going off script from those in some cases, we are willing to work out a new route if our predicted routes don't account for potential response. That said, if you are looking for the promise that the heroes are always going to win or that the mods are going to easily hand wins to players, I cannot give that to you. Avalon exists as a game designed for player decisions to affect the plot, not player decisions to affect the plot but only toward a different positive result.
That said, most player-decided events do trend toward positive. The previous two poll-based events before this one had successful/victorious results as evidence that it is absolutely possible for players to win with similar odds and poll styles. (And, actually, even less response time.)
8. Polls should be 1 week - 1 month long.
We are willing to move it to 1 week in the future. However, as the pace of players varies greatly, we are not going to hold a month-long poll. Every poll stops generating responses after a week's time when we've offered them longer than a week. We want to keep the momentum going, and all polls are based on intent of action, not dependent on the individual threads. (We literally only asked where your character decided to go, which can be decided via plotting without starting your thread yet.)
9. This event had no lead up.
It was set up over time, actually! The stone giant was mentioned as being present in Lestari's introduction. Though we called it “mechanical-stone” feet, for the sake of simplicity we began calling it a stone giant. Celliwig has been an intentional moral gray area and has also been notably established as having been isolated for hundreds of years, which limits their knowledge of current events or reliability of outside sources. As for Lestari, it was not on the map and was never intended to be added to the map. Additional fun fact: the word "lestari" means "permanent," which was like calling the Titanic unsinkable. The dragon appeared in the introduction of Lestari was stated to be dangerous and only calm so long as no one touched its hoard. Dragon-slaying laws have been brought up intentionally to state that they're illegal to kill unless certain circumstances present themselves (like the dragon burning down a town). Kymbyr is introduced as a necromancer and a well-known one, and was introduced as someone who could clear out the Forest of the Felled. At the start of the month with a dark web quest to break their friend out of prison, establishing them as more morally aligned to bad behavior than good. Celliwig from the very beginning has been on the side of bad producing results just as much as 'good' people can, and sometimes being necessary to move forward. (Such as through the Forest of the Felled.) It was all set up over time, though we do not intend on clearly labeling all foreshadowing of future events. We understand people like warnings of anything to change, but we do intend on plot twists in the future and now.
10. The summaries don't contain details.
We're going to try a different format for events soon to avoid the wall of text. Summaries will likely remain the same because if they contain details, they're not summaries, but we hope this new format will alleviate the text wall.
11. I didn't know the poll would be important / have consequences.
The format of this game is that player actions have a strong effect on the outcomes of the game. If there is a poll for IC action, that means that players have a strong effect on the outcome of whatever that poll is about. This is not the first time that polls have had drastic possibilities (see: Arthur's life was on the line in the Hall of Mirrors). This game does not have guaranteed positive outcomes. It is absolutely possible to get both good and bad routes and turns in Isle of Avalon.
12. The poll is unfair because we calculate out of the total number of characters instead of only the ones who choose to participate. People should have to opt in to not participate for them to count.
I understand your points here, but this was compensated for in another way-- namely, making the percentages so low and putting bonuses in place to add weight to different circumstances and reward participation in a month that offered fewer opportunities (which is why the thread option was weighted to 3 instead of 1). That said, this event was explicitly designed so that not all three missions this time could be achieved (we even named it “Triage,” after the emergency process of deciding which patients should be prioritized and which are too far gone to save).
Despite that, the players who did participate actually were just shy of passing all three options. 20% of the total is 47 points, not individual characters. Celliwig was only behind by 5 points (5 characters or fewer with bonuses). The Stone Giant was only 6 points shy (2 threads or 6 players without the bonus.) If there was a higher percent cap in a game of 235 characters, I would absolutely agree with you that adjustments are needed. However, this was not an insurmountable amount nor was it something that even came close to the game never having a chance to succeed at, particularly given that Lestari overkilled the requirement to pass.
Not counting any player who doesn't respond to the poll with what direction their character is intending on going after plotting/discussion would result in every mission passing without effort, which would just mean that you get positive results by default instead of having any possibility of negative results, particularly given the majority of the game's characters are hero types. Games in which players' choice matters cannot function if it only matters so far as positive outcomes are possible.
13. Pacing issues
It might have seemed to quicken up but it is the natural progression of the elements that have been set up coming together (as noted previously). Rather than having this all spread out over the holiday months, we wanted to wrap up the current bit then allow for the next few months be a bit of down time to both allow characters to ICly process events and for players to be able to not be burdened with more plot heavy things during a time where activity tends to be lowest. Our format is based on the principle that this game can accommodate non-combative/adventure characters so we always include one action/adventure prompt set and one more mundane/SOL prompt set, but we can see if people are interested in reducing the number of prompts under each and see if there's a little more focus possible.
LIST OF ITEMS TO BE BROUGHT TO A FEEDBACK POLL FOR THE WHOLE GAME SO EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE TO VOICE THEIR OPINION:
Reformat events to be easier to digest/locate key information and important details.
List, description, and intended function of the following game mechanics in the FAQ: Monthly Updates, QuestBoard, Test Drive Meme, Events.
Polls for player decisions should delay event posts for 1 week after the initial plotting post.
If the above 1 week poll time passes, would you rather: the plotting post be shifted earlier (to the 15th, which may strain incoming newbies by not allowing for an adjustment period), keep the plotting date consistent every month and move the event to 1 week later (23rd, which may make it harder to achieve AC for the current month using event threads, but will make AC easier for the following month using event threads).
Reduce number of options under each prompt set.
I think this was good discussion to have and allowed us to hear opinions, but in the future, we would appreciate constructive criticism be brought to the mod contact so that we avoid large pile-ons, as it makes it harder to read through and respond to in a timely fashion. That is what the mod contact page is for. Thank you!
Feedback Response (To all above as of 8:35pm PST on 9/22/21)
To start off, we've made a summary of points brought to our attention and would like to present them to the players as well as any thoughts we may have had on them. At the end of this post, we will include a list of changes that we will poll the community on to see what the community at-large would like to do.
1. "Wall of Text" events- there's too much going on in every event, or it takes a long time to mentally work out plot-heavy posts.
Our events aren't actually that much longer than most when compared to other games. However, it's been brought to our attention that our layout makes it harder to read and parse through. We're happy to consider finding a better way to break it up and display events. Bear with us a little while so we can figure this out.
2. Not enough time to start a thread before the result of the poll.
No one was able to start a thread before the poll. The poll is closed before the log goes up. This has been the case for most polls, so that we are able to determine outcomes for players to understand where their thread can head on an OOC level. This is why we post plotting posts ahead of the game, to allow players to discuss OOC what they want to do with their characters during the events and decide ahead of posting their threads. The only thread that was asked for was for bonuses, so players could be like "Hey! I participated in that prompt, I can help extra!" It was not a duty or requirement. That is why it is worth 3 points as the highest bonus because it is the only bonus that had required action. We recognize that perhaps the concept of bonuses had not been properly explained on our part and will seek to reword in the future.
3. Events start in the middle of the month and so it's difficult to get AC:
The following prompt sets are offered to the entire game throughout the month and are considered game canon and available to all characters:
- Monthly Updates - posts right before the start of each month; setting-related small things, not necessarily prompts but ideas you can form your own prompts with)
- QuestBoard - posts right before the start of each month; prompts for do-gooders and a separate set for morally gray and villainous types; completely avoidable if you don't want to use them, posted before the TDM so that newbies can use these as additional prompts if they don't see anything that interests them in the... It should be noted that these are not considered events at all and are not going to host game plots.
- Test Drive Meme - 1st of every month. All prompts in the TDM are considered game canon (as in, these things ARE happening in the city, whether or not they're with characters people do or don't app in end up counting) and have been clearly labeled as such since day 1. TDM prompts are frequently used to set up or lead into events. The only limitation that we ask is that new players are the only ones to top level on the post; all players may use the prompts for logs, network posts, inbox threads, or anywhere they want really. This has and always will be the case.
- The Monthly Event - Plotting on 18th and log on the 20th was actually decided by player vote to see what the best spacing and format would be. Bear in mind that apps only close on the 14th and thus would leave no adjustment period for new players (and also potentially heavily stress the mods out due to lack of time between apps and writing). Pushing it later would force it to overlap too heavily with the TDM, Questboard, and monthly updates which are all at the start of the month. Additionally, on the mod side of things, we are also attempting to process activity checks and rewards and update setting info, manage hiatuses, and more.
AC is designed to make sure that you are starting at least one new thing a month and the game offers plenty to go off of throughout the month, not just all at once. It does not need to be the event, but even if it is, AC allows for up to 7 days of the previous month to still count. While we are not a game designed for boomeranging threads, our AC is designed to make sure that players aren't months behind in the game. This is a deliberately chosen pace.
To clarify and better identify the function of each avenue of prompt offerings, we will add a breakdown to the FAQ sometime in the near future.
4. Trouble keeping up with the storyline/important plots:
If ever you are having trouble with the game, we have a game progression page you may consider checking out! It is updated after plot-heavy events and uses bullet points to make following the storyline easier.
In events themselves, in order to provide enough description and information for players, we try to include details in the events. We already get loads of questions as it is with the included details; hundreds more that not everyone is going to read through in the questions thread is going to make things even more challenging to coordinate for both players and mods. HOWEVER, as stated before, we are open to looking into alternative formats to maybe break the information up to make it easier to digest.
5. "The next 3 months will be chiller" does not absolve the heavy hits we already took over the last month. I phrased it as feeling like we get to dance on the rubble.
That statement was not intended to absolve anything, it was to let people know that we have no intention of forcing a heavy plot on anyone during the holiday months, which are often the busiest months of the year for most people. The whole format of Avalon is based on player response having control over the situation, and the consequences that follow. We're not just going to pretend like nothing happened, but we still feel obligated to inform our players that they can expect things to lighten up going forward for a few months. Sorry for using the word "chill" that is just how I talk and it was late at night for me. I apologize for typing informally, as it seems to have caused a misunderstanding.
6. People weren't aware that threads were required to participate in the poll.
That is because they were not. A bonus of 3 points was offered to anyone who did participate in the TDM prompt. It should be keyly noted that this is a BONUS, not a requirement. It was only ever intended to be a bonus to help even out the number of busy people during this month. We considered delaying the event, but it only ever gets less convenient during the holiday for people. Anyone can thread any prompt they want even if they do not participate in the poll. The poll is just used to determine outcomes.
7. It was inevitable that some of the missions failed.
Yes. The event prompt set was called "Triage" because the intention was that it would not be possible to save all three missions. Triage (in very simplified terms) is a system by which emergency responders categorize individuals based on who they can save and who they cannot. The intention of the event is that at least one of the missions would fail.
I want to talk about this in specific because it has been stated many times that this game is not intended to be a game that only has good ends. There are absolutely bad ends possible in Avalon. There are OK ends, good ends, best ends. They've been story mapped out based on potential player decisions, and even going off script from those in some cases, we are willing to work out a new route if our predicted routes don't account for potential response. That said, if you are looking for the promise that the heroes are always going to win or that the mods are going to easily hand wins to players, I cannot give that to you. Avalon exists as a game designed for player decisions to affect the plot, not player decisions to affect the plot but only toward a different positive result.
That said, most player-decided events do trend toward positive. The previous two poll-based events before this one had successful/victorious results as evidence that it is absolutely possible for players to win with similar odds and poll styles. (And, actually, even less response time.)
8. Polls should be 1 week - 1 month long.
We are willing to move it to 1 week in the future. However, as the pace of players varies greatly, we are not going to hold a month-long poll. Every poll stops generating responses after a week's time when we've offered them longer than a week. We want to keep the momentum going, and all polls are based on intent of action, not dependent on the individual threads. (We literally only asked where your character decided to go, which can be decided via plotting without starting your thread yet.)
9. This event had no lead up.
It was set up over time, actually! The stone giant was mentioned as being present in Lestari's introduction. Though we called it “mechanical-stone” feet, for the sake of simplicity we began calling it a stone giant. Celliwig has been an intentional moral gray area and has also been notably established as having been isolated for hundreds of years, which limits their knowledge of current events or reliability of outside sources. As for Lestari, it was not on the map and was never intended to be added to the map. Additional fun fact: the word "lestari" means "permanent," which was like calling the Titanic unsinkable. The dragon appeared in the introduction of Lestari was stated to be dangerous and only calm so long as no one touched its hoard. Dragon-slaying laws have been brought up intentionally to state that they're illegal to kill unless certain circumstances present themselves (like the dragon burning down a town). Kymbyr is introduced as a necromancer and a well-known one, and was introduced as someone who could clear out the Forest of the Felled. At the start of the month with a dark web quest to break their friend out of prison, establishing them as more morally aligned to bad behavior than good. Celliwig from the very beginning has been on the side of bad producing results just as much as 'good' people can, and sometimes being necessary to move forward. (Such as through the Forest of the Felled.) It was all set up over time, though we do not intend on clearly labeling all foreshadowing of future events. We understand people like warnings of anything to change, but we do intend on plot twists in the future and now.
10. The summaries don't contain details.
We're going to try a different format for events soon to avoid the wall of text. Summaries will likely remain the same because if they contain details, they're not summaries, but we hope this new format will alleviate the text wall.
11. I didn't know the poll would be important / have consequences.
The format of this game is that player actions have a strong effect on the outcomes of the game. If there is a poll for IC action, that means that players have a strong effect on the outcome of whatever that poll is about. This is not the first time that polls have had drastic possibilities (see: Arthur's life was on the line in the Hall of Mirrors). This game does not have guaranteed positive outcomes. It is absolutely possible to get both good and bad routes and turns in Isle of Avalon.
12. The poll is unfair because we calculate out of the total number of characters instead of only the ones who choose to participate. People should have to opt in to not participate for them to count.
I understand your points here, but this was compensated for in another way-- namely, making the percentages so low and putting bonuses in place to add weight to different circumstances and reward participation in a month that offered fewer opportunities (which is why the thread option was weighted to 3 instead of 1). That said, this event was explicitly designed so that not all three missions this time could be achieved (we even named it “Triage,” after the emergency process of deciding which patients should be prioritized and which are too far gone to save).
Despite that, the players who did participate actually were just shy of passing all three options. 20% of the total is 47 points, not individual characters. Celliwig was only behind by 5 points (5 characters or fewer with bonuses). The Stone Giant was only 6 points shy (2 threads or 6 players without the bonus.) If there was a higher percent cap in a game of 235 characters, I would absolutely agree with you that adjustments are needed. However, this was not an insurmountable amount nor was it something that even came close to the game never having a chance to succeed at, particularly given that Lestari overkilled the requirement to pass.
Not counting any player who doesn't respond to the poll with what direction their character is intending on going after plotting/discussion would result in every mission passing without effort, which would just mean that you get positive results by default instead of having any possibility of negative results, particularly given the majority of the game's characters are hero types. Games in which players' choice matters cannot function if it only matters so far as positive outcomes are possible.
13. Pacing issues
It might have seemed to quicken up but it is the natural progression of the elements that have been set up coming together (as noted previously). Rather than having this all spread out over the holiday months, we wanted to wrap up the current bit then allow for the next few months be a bit of down time to both allow characters to ICly process events and for players to be able to not be burdened with more plot heavy things during a time where activity tends to be lowest. Our format is based on the principle that this game can accommodate non-combative/adventure characters so we always include one action/adventure prompt set and one more mundane/SOL prompt set, but we can see if people are interested in reducing the number of prompts under each and see if there's a little more focus possible.
LIST OF ITEMS TO BE BROUGHT TO A FEEDBACK POLL FOR THE WHOLE GAME SO EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE TO VOICE THEIR OPINION:
I think this was good discussion to have and allowed us to hear opinions, but in the future, we would appreciate constructive criticism be brought to the mod contact so that we avoid large pile-ons, as it makes it harder to read through and respond to in a timely fashion. That is what the mod contact page is for. Thank you!